So Long and Thanks for all the Fish!

[Sharp]

Some people already know this, but for those that don't, I'm planning to server/guild/faction hop on Ryune at some point in the next week. The main reason is that we're not getting much done and tbh the atmosphere in the guild isn't what it used to be.

I'm working on gearing my Brewmaster and will still try to make time to tank for people, but as most know my focus tends to be Ryune.

Always about on Discord so feel free to prod for stuff.

[Dave]

Am sad, but understand. Hope your hop is a success

[Welsper]

Oh my, that is quite sad. And i just know youll be joining those corpsecamping alliance raidgroups in uldum and vale as soon as youre over there! curse you! also, best of luck ofc.

[Tiran]

So I'm not sure that this is the right place to say this, nor should I be the person to do so, but everyone else is tiptoeing around and since I'm leaving the continent soon anyway I'll bite the bullet here.

There is a conversation which has desperately needed to happen in this guild for at least the past year or so. Because people haven't been able to have an adult conversation about it, resentment and awkwardness have eaten in to people's fun to the point that a number of long-term guild members have considered stepping away, and now we get to the point where one of our longest standing and most committed friends is publicly leaving. This has symptoms including but not limited to the falling numbers, failing raids, the lack of BoTmeets and the general malaise that has afflicted the guild.

We can do a history lesson here and trace it back, but to a degree that's not the point and it's not healthy to start this by opening up old wounds, even if that might be part of the healing process. Looking to the present and future, the issues now boil down to a number of things:

• The social element of the guild is dead. There exists two groups of people, one on the discord which has semi-active chat, and a smaller group on the forums and TS which are functionally dead. People don't log on to chat, showing up basically for mythic runs and that's it.
• People are being pushed away. Long term friends like Sharp, Lei and others feel unwelcome in the guild, people get aggro over minor things and knowing that you might get  lashed out at at any time makes people just decide they'll have more fun in another environment where they can jut relax and enjoy themselves. This has lead to a lack of people which in no small part has caused raids to stop. 
• Disagreement over level of commitment and effort. Mythic+ runs at 15+ are not easy. To complete these in time is a real challenge as it is supposed to be. The game offers many easier ways to get gear and to see the content if that's what you want to do, but people are frustrated that runs go south a lot and its often due to easily corrected but mistakes the persist week on week.

Please, can we at least try to have a conversation and address this. Let's not let silly high-school drama tear apart the guild and friendship group that has existed for so long and brought so many of us together. This is not going to be an easy conversation, as the divisiveness and bitterness has sunk in over time, and will require people to be open and to take honest criticism on the chest without lashing out in anger, but it has to be a conversation we have if we want there to be a Bottle or Tree in any meaningful sense by the next expansion.

[Sharp]

15 minutes ago, Tiran said:

, and now we get to the point where one of our longest standing and most committed friends is publicly leaving.

Well, its only public as I knew some people didn't know my plans, and I felt it was best to say something rather than just disappear from the guild one evening.

[Gragneth]

53 minutes ago, Tiran said:

The social element of the guild is dead. There exists two groups of people, one on the discord which has semi-active chat, and a smaller group on the forums and TS which are functionally dead. People don't log on to chat, showing up basically for mythic runs and that's it.

Yeah I definitely feel this one the most. My time on classic allowed me to meet some awesome new people and play more with people I already knew (I miss them all sorely). However the key thing is that people just hung out and chatted. I was sometimes with people into the wee hours of the morning just chatting about so many things. In comparison, BoT has soured in a lot of ways as it feels like their is a spectre looming over everything. Its a shame we all cannot seem to bury our burdens so that we can get back to the fun times together, instead it seems we must labour under them tirelessly. 

As for Sharp I feel this is a good choice for you. I feel you put your heart and soul into the game, for yourself and others benefit. Think its about time you were able to get something out for it. Hope you join a fun group of people and enjoy some solid raiding. 

Please make sure you put the server name on here as I may just burn a level boost at some point on there or move my Paladin on to it (its not like Martins gonna come back to the game). 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Gragneth

[Tiran]

45 minutes ago, Sharp said:

Well, its only public as I knew some people didn't know my plans, and I felt it was best to say something rather than just disappear from the guild one evening.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to come across as accusatory, it was more to nod that I hadn't made similar efforts when other people did slip quietly away under veil of night, but that we feel their loss no less keenly.

[Gragneth]

1 minute ago, Tiran said:

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to come across as accusatory, it was more to nod that I hadn't made similar efforts when other people did slip quietly away under veil of night, but that we feel their loss no less keenly.

Yup, you are totally right about the veil of night. I waited till 4am to try and leave the classic guild while no one was on AND PEOPLE WERE STILL ON! If I waited any longer the sun would have come up. 

[Brynneth]

I'm not sure what really can be done. I assumed that all the people who have stopped playing over the last year or two have been either too busy with some combination of work/PhDs/kids, or burned out on WoW and/or would just rather play a different MMO. I didn't realise that people have been feeling unwelcome and I'm sorry if I've contributed to that. 

We've kind of run into a dual problem with WoW as a game where a) there is no content available for groups of 5 < n < 10 people, and b) this expansion specifically is unusually unfriendly for people who only play 1-2 days a week (because of Essences, Corruptions and Cloak upgrades being SO important to your output but also being usually gated behind daily quests and rep grinds). So as a result, not only is raiding completely impossible but also those of us who do have the time to play regularly feel like we're having to carry everyone else. 

I think we've just fallen below the critical mass of people necessary to both keep a social scene rolling and keep PVE content going, especially of the sort where one or two people can be carried as a catch-up. The only thing I can think of for us to do about it at this point would be to just admit that staying as a friends-only guild going forward is untenable and that we need to merge with another guild.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Brynneth

[Dave]

In the interests of being open and honest and with a view to trying to clear the air once and for all. I’m just going to throw my thoughts out here.

Replying to Tom’s post first:

#1 Social issues

The guild is a lot quieter at present – and it’s mostly down to us having 10 (9 soon) active players. But people are a fair bit quieter on GChat when they’re on anyway. But I think that’s due to us getting into the habit of idling on discord voice if/when folks are on as it’s just easier?

We don’t have a base of people on idling as most folk are only able to be on for a few hours at a time max, and even then, only on specific days – days on which we have activities planned so most communication takes place on discord/TS voice

Also – I feel like discord text has mostly replaced guild chat and the bulk of forum posting? We idly chat away about nonsense like in Gchat but plan stuff like on the forums. I like using it because I can poke at it easily on my phone whenever as I also use discord for a lot of other things. It would be nice if everyone was there participating because I don’t want to leave anyone out but I also don’t want to have to post things multiple times in order to cover everyone?

#2 Pushing people away

Honestly - A lot of this could be a holdover from issues that have occurred previously - such as the great discord explosion. Some issues have never really been put to bed and we haven't really drawn a line under it and it’s lead to some lingering grievances which can occasionally surface – such as an incident on the forums last year when we were discussing classic servers.

It can feel like I have to walk on eggshells sometimes and that is very, very draining.

And negativity seems to be the default attitude within the guild and it isn’t helpful and has maybe added to this and it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy? I know I’ve occasionally been snarky in some runs but a lot of that is because I’ve been frustrated that I just couldn’t seem to be getting things going for the guild. Now that we’re just focusing on M+ it should improve.

One thing that really gets to me is what I can perceive to be complaints about the way M+ runs are allocated or organised – I know you may not intend it that way but it’s very easy for me to interpret it personally when I’m just trying to get everyone runs and it sucks because I overthink it. Please speak up in advance about what preferences are otherwise I’ll be trying to do things in order to get the highest level of keys for everybody – saying ‘I’m good for whatever’ doesn’t help as much as you think

So please – try and be positive?

#3 Disagreement over effort

This is less of an issue now.

Previously the M+ system didn’t really offer anything beyond tens so we got into a rut of just doing the motions of our ten with no real motivation.

Folk now seem to be putting a bit more effort in and doing things like simming etc to improve performance and reviewing runs afterwards. Hopefully our new plan of fixing M+ groups each week will allow for more runs and more consistency while also allowing people to use their time effectively if they know they’re not running.

I’m sad we’re not doing the heroic raid – but unless we get a few more people back it’s not really feasible as I do not have the energy to deal with puggies.

#4 abandon ship

I'd rather not abandon the guild as it's got a lot of history and it would be nice to welcome people back if they return to characters long abandoned - but if people think that's best then we should probably start shopping around for a suitable guild that wouldn't mind taking on a pile of socials. Not even sure where to begin there

Personally I was hoping we could get some crossover with the guys playing classic and provide a nice home to people wanting to play retail when shadowlands drops

Finally - I should also point out that I have server transferred my Paladin to Argent Dawn (H) but this is more to have a character I can play with my friend Kat in her guild’s social raids on a regular basis.

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Dave
Phone posting is hard

[Sharp]

Also – I feel like discord text has mostly replaced guild chat and the bulk of forum posting? We idly chat away about nonsense like in Gchat but plan stuff like on the forums. I like using it because I can poke at it easily on my phone whenever as I also use discord for a lot of other things. It would be nice if everyone was there participating because I don’t want to leave anyone out but I also don’t want to have to post things multiple times in order to cover everyone?

Pretty much. I have discord on all my devices and use it for so many things that its just easier to use. I tend to prod the forums like once a week.

[Welsper]

Id agree with the discord part most certainly. If i didnt seem too shaken at the far-and-wide best tank the guild has ever know leaving, it was because i figured: wed stay in contact with discord anyways - and lets face it, gchat is very much dead with 1-2 conversations a week, while discord at least has some discussion or comments ongoing at virtually all times. 

Ofc, if i contributed to people feeling rejected or alienated, i can only apologize. Any jokes about classic being not really that great were in good spirits i thought - and i was rather vocal about not enjoying it in the first place. 

And sorry if i pressured people into doing content (m+) they dont really enjoy - i remember forcing sharp and mark into a 15key of mine randomly, despite sharp being less than enthusiastic in the first place - a run that ended abruptly in disaster. if that upset you so much that you had to leave us for the alliance, i can only take all the blame and flagelate appropriately... i try to keep positive even when spending quite a lot of time to get the weekly done at all costs, but i dont know if it comes accross like that... i dont mind wiping for hours, im swimming in dosh, i can afford the bills!

[Buachalla]

Not read all the replies, but I do feel like I need to clarify, that my leaving is almost entirely based on the direction WoW has, or hasn't, been taking and not due to guild climate. It certainly sped up my decision, but it wasn't a major factor in and of itself.

 

Also, funds permitting, I might give Shadowlands a bash to start fresh, but if there is more grinding for inflated points and what not then I doubt I'd stay long after hitting cap.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Buachalla

[Largi]

The Guild "Fractured" a considerable time ago, but was still held together by tenuous strings.
The first "Incident" that really started severing those strings was the handling of the major event. That pushed away a number of us who were on the fringes, myself included. Just due to the manner it was handled.
The "Discord Incident" was a secondary issue but further broke things and pushed more people apart. The majority of online "Social" has moved towards twitter and discord and in our attempts to move over the "incident" seemingly halted it. Our discord is one of the lowest activity discords I am on.. and a few of my discords are less than 10 members. 
The thirdly - life is just happening. 
I can't remember the last time I spoke to Mark, but I'm currently deep in bloodbowl and i'm sure i'd get some mocking comments about my teams performances, but he's busy with his life. 
Todd and Sarah are planning a wedding amongst the chaos the world is in. 
Loz I assumed was off somewhere doing something! 

We aren't students anymore, WoW isn't high in our priorities, and we all mostly have a variance of other games we play. 

BoT doesn't need to be BoT for us to play together, so long as we stay in some form of communication

[Gragneth]

6 hours ago, Largi said:

Loz I assumed was off somewhere doing something! 

OMomcoac man! I have been back for this whole silly expansion, missed only like two raids. Then I leveled and raided with all the classic crew. I am here there and every where! Tis but you that hath become the shadow of the room! 

[Kryton]

So I haven't replied up and til this point as I as seeing what happened. That's a lie, I've been busy.

Firstly best of luck Sharp. I hope you get what you're looking for out of the game through this move and I cannot blame you in the slightest. BoT cannot now feasibly raid and hence M+ is our only real content. Whilst this is a shame I think a lot of us have moved forward with our lives which is certainly playing its part in this downturn.

To address Tom's points first of all. I don't think there is a Discord vs TS split but I would say there is a Discord vs forums split. It is quite clear that conversations are happening in Discord channels and elements are then cross-posted onto the forum to catch players who aren't on Discord. I agree it is a shame that this has to happen and it feels unnecessary.

People being pushed away is something they can comment on but I hope I've not been a cause to push anyone away, it certainly isn't my intention. I want BoT to be welcoming to everyone and people to feel they can come and go as they please. In many ways that is even more true if we aren't raiding anymore.

I totally agree about the needed commitment needed for +15s. They need consistent pressing and practice but I feel that has changed a lot since Tom posted and we're getting much further on these now.

I don't really see how BoT can continue as a guild in its current form except as a social environment for people so I suggest we look for another guild to join as social members at this point.

Lastly:

On 3/18/2020 at 7:59 AM, Largi said:

I can't remember the last time I spoke to Mark, but I'm currently deep in bloodbowl and i'm sure i'd get some mocking comments about my teams performances, but he's busy with his life. 

Let me be clear, I always have time for that. If I had time I'd join you with my favourite Orc team. 12 lineman in the initial starting team BUT 8 rerolls.

 

[dangphat]

If it helps I stopped playing about three years ago when my computer stopped working (pretty certain my wife did it with a glass of water on purpose) I haven't replaced it with a gaming rig since and now pay a half hour of Fortnite twice a week at most on the Xbox. I miss the esprit de corps we once had.

In case anyone is wondering life after gaming is great and you have so much more time. Just wish I had stopped before having kids so I could enjoy it.